PLoP with ext.3?

[Javelin Dan]

Greetings all! I'll apologize up front as this question or one like it has probably been addressed before, but I just found you folks and it's my first visit here. I have an old Dell Inspiron 8000 laptop with a broken CD/DVD drive that has no native option to boot via USB. I have been able to load various versions of Puppy Linux on it using PLoP and a live USB that was created with a live CD of Puppy on another computer, but only by first formatting it with a Linux ext. 3 partition. For whatever it's worth, I also install Grub "Legacy" to the MBR. As an inept newbie, this is easy for me as these options are all available in the applications menu of Puppy and easy to select through point-and-click. Any attempt I've made to boot a FAT 16 or 32 formatted iso has been unsuccessful – as in nothing happens when I click on the "USB" selection in PLoP. It doesn't freeze or behave badly, it just does nothing. I have been trying to come up with a way to create a live USB of Lubuntu with an ext. 3 format and cannot find a USB creator that will work with anything other than a FAT partition (other than Puppy). Isn't there a way to make this thing boot with a FAT partition? Any and all help will be appreciated. I should point out that I'm not at all adept with the command line and am attempting to accomplish all this graphically through point-and-click. Thanks.

P.S. – If using a Fat formatted partition, should I instead install Grub-4-DOS?

[Elmar]

hi,

somehow your posting is confusing, please write it a bit clearer

best regards
elmar

[jan4]

Hi Javelin Dan,

I don't think it has anything to do with the file system.
You CAN'T boot an ISO directly from an usb drive , you must write it to cd or dvd or at least Emulate an CD/DVD drive.
Grub installed by puppy can't do that as far as i know, grub4 dos can ( i do not know how wel it works with Lubuntu.

I would try to use puppy's grub to Frugal boot Lubuntu.

To do so startup Puppy and make a folder on the usb stick /Lubuntu (/boot is already there)
Double click on the lubuntu iso file and copy all files to the /Lubuntu directory
Than look in the isolinux.cfg how Lubuntu used to start and open in the /boot directory the menu.cfg and make a menu for Lubuntu.
Restart and try it.

[Javelin Dan]

I was going to let this post die as I felt overwhelmed and out of my league as I have no technical ability to dissect and rearrange files, but then I thought maybe there's a small nugget to be mined by me and other raw newbies so here goes...

What I've been able to do with puppy is this: I start with a 4GB flashdrive. With the version of Puppy of my choice booted up, I insert the USB and wait for it to show up on my desktop as "sdb1". I open Gparted and erase any data that might be there and then make a new ext.3 partition and flag it to boot (for my application, previous attempts to use FAT 16 or FAT 32 partitions always ended in a failure to boot). I then start the universal installer and choose to install Puppy to sdb1. There are several choices to be clicked along the way, but I just click on the default choices. After the install is complete, I open Grub Legacy, click on all the default choices EXCEPT the final one which I choose to install to the Master Boot Record (bottom choice). When this is done, I have a bootable version of Puppy Linux that I can boot on this old laptop via PLoP after toggling to the "USB" selection.This version is an exact copy of the "Live CD" with all the same options to install the OS to wherever I choose. I've tried many slight variations of this process, and they have all met with the same failure to boot. Am I actually doing something wrong? Is there no way to simulate this process using another flavor of Linux without the previously mentioned "brain surgery"? I'd like to learn what my limited expertise will allow, but it looks like it would be easier for me just to replace the CD/DVD drive and run the live CD. Anyone care to weigh in? Thanks.

[Javelin Dan]

jan4 - By the way, all the live USB's I've made so far using UNetbootin and Live USB creator that were formatted with Fat 16 or 32 WOULD boot and open a live session of Lubuntu on a newer computer that has the option to boot from USB. They just won't boot via PLoP on the old Dell which is really the point of this post.

[Elmar]

jan4 - By the way, all the live USB's I've made so far using UNetbootin and Live USB creator that were formatted with Fat 16 or 32 WOULD boot and open a live session of Lubuntu on a newer computer that has the option to boot from USB.

fat16 and fat32 is only used that people can access the files on the drive from microsoft windows (and others).

They just won't boot via PLoP on the old Dell which is really the point of this post.

whats happening exactly when you try to boot such a distro?

[Javelin Dan]

Elmar - When I try to boot any of these live USB's using PLoP on the old Dell, I get an error message saying something to the effect that the OS does not exist. I can then take this same USB and plug it into my Compaq Pressario (currently running Zenwalk) and it will boot. Ditto for my Dell Dimension 5150 running XP at work. If you check, you'll see that all these USB creator programs require formatting with Fat 16 or FAT 32 partitions. I first tried to actually format the USB's with an ext.3 partition with Gparted then install the iso, but the USB creators wouldn't recognize the format.

[Javelin Dan]

Just a thought...I realise that when I am installing Puppy in the previously described manner, I am actually installing a live session rather than the actual iso file. Puppy simply allows you to install that session to a USB if desired. So, is there any way to do this with any of the Ubuntu family? I guess that's my real question here if I can't identify why PLoP won't boot the live USB's I've already tried.

[Elmar]

i assume, you are using the latest boot manager version.

Elmar - When I try to boot any of these live USB's using PLoP on the old Dell, I get an error message saying something to the effect that the OS does not exist.

please tell me the exact message

I can then take this same USB and plug it into my Compaq Pressario (currently running Zenwalk) and it will boot. Ditto for my Dell Dimension 5150 running XP at work. If you check, you'll see that all these USB creator programs require formatting with Fat 16 or FAT 32 partitions. I first tried to actually format the USB's with an ext.3 partition with Gparted then install the iso, but the USB creators wouldn't recognize the format.

i dont know why you want ext3, but you can get it with:

1) let a creator install linux to the fat file system
2) copy the content of the usb drive to a directory on your hard disk
3) format the usb to ext3
4) start a linux that has the program extlinux (ex. plop linux)
5) run extlinux to make the usb drive bootable
6) copy the directory with the usb linux back to the usb drive
7) rename the syslinux.cfg to extlinux.conf
boot the usb drive

[Javelin Dan]

First let me apologize – I do not get a message that no operating system is found. That message comes up when I click the "Linux on USB" option on the next screen which is my boot menu for Grub. Here's what actually happens:

I power-up and get the PLoP boot menu. The first default choice is my hard disk. If I click on that , whatever OS I have installed on the hard drive boots (currently a version of Puppy Linux). If I toggle down to USB and click on it, I get a blue screen with the following lines of text:

-   Loading EHCI driver
-   Searching hosts
-   Driver removed
-   Host 1
-   Port 1: Device connected

At this point everything locks-up and the screen is effectively frozen. I can only do a hard shut-down or press Ctrl/Alt/Delete to reboot to the original boot screen.

The version of PLoP I'm currently using is 5.0.

[Elmar]

ok, that problem has nothing to do with the system on the usb drive.

[Elmar]

does the boot manager hang when no usb drive is connected?
are any other usb device connected?

[Javelin Dan]

No - It does not hang up otherwise. There is a USB mouse connected to the second socket, but I thought of that also and unplugged it with the same result.

[Elmar]

bootup somewhere a linux, plugin the usb drive and run "lsusb -v > lsusb.txt"
post the lsusb.txt here as attachment (additional options)

[Javelin Dan]

I will post the output as you request - it may be Monday before I can respond. Thanks for your time!

[Javelin Dan]

Here's the ouput you asked for (I hope!) - the command you gave me was not accepted by Bash. I ultimately typed the command "lsusb" to get this output:

Password:
root[one]# lsusb
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 090c:37a2 Feiya Technology Corp.
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 0781:5567 SanDisk Corp.
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 004 Device 002: ID 0461:4d25 Primax Electronics, Ltd
Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 006 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub

By the way -  It took me about a half hour and a lot of Googling to realize that I had to type "su" first then my password to make the  command "lsusb" work. We are light-years apart on our skill level here and I just want to plead that you do not assume I know something that you didn't tell me. Please give me very specific instructions if you are asking me to go into the terminal. Thanks.

[Elmar]

Here's the ouput you asked for (I hope!) - the command you gave me was not accepted by Bash. I ultimately typed the command "lsusb" to get this output:

Password:
root[one]# lsusb
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 090c:37a2 Feiya Technology Corp.
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 0781:5567 SanDisk Corp.
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 004 Device 002: ID 0461:4d25 Primax Electronics, Ltd
Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 006 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub

By the way -  It took me about a half hour and a lot of Googling to realize that I had to type "su" first then my password to make the  command "lsusb" work. We are light-years apart on our skill level here and I just want to plead that you do not assume I know something that you didn't tell me. Please give me very specific instructions if you are asking me to go into the terminal. Thanks.

and i need exactly what i am asking for. i need the verbose output with -v

dont complain about "su", i cannot guess what linux you use. a half hour searching is nothing. you had also the chance to ask me, so dont get upset.

i dont know the knowledge level of anyone that is posting. where do you think should i start when i ask for infos, with pc power on?

[Javelin Dan]

I got another very verbose output after typing "lsusb -v" but it's too large to print here. Let me know what you want me to do next.

[Javelin Dan]

I guess I should be more specific as I seem not to be communicating too well. When I tried to post the output, I got a message saying that posts are limited to 2000 characters - apparently, this one is larger. For the record, I did state in my first post (above) that I was a raw rookie and had no skill with the command line. I'm not upset and I meant no disrespect. My only point is that what is simple for you is very difficult for me. Please tell me what you want me to do next.

[johnhc]

Javelin Dan, I suggest you attach the file to your post as a .txt file.  Click "Additional Options..." at the lower left, browse for and attach your data.  Enjoy, John.

[Elmar]

When I tried to post the output, I got a message saying that posts are limited to 2000 characters - apparently, this one is larger.

i know that the output is large. thats the reason for the "> lsusb.txt" in the command that i said. this writes the output into the file lsusb.txt. then open a browser, go to this thread and post the file as attachment. use Additional Options... link to add an attachment when you reply the post.

[Javelin Dan]

I think I've done what you ask - hope it works.

[Javelin Dan]

I copied this to an Open Office Document. When I tried to open it it wouldn't, so I re-saved it as a PDF. Hope one or the other works for you.

[Javelin Dan]

One more try...

[Elmar]

all the different file types are not required. with "lsusb -v > lsusb.txt" you already get a text file. however, i was able to get the information, so its ok.

and this data is from another computer that the one where the boot manager hangs, or?

back to the computer where it hangs.
did you try another usb drive, only to see if it hangs too? the drive doesn't have to be boot able for the test.
you can try a fall back with pressing "shift u" in the main menu.

[Javelin Dan]

Yes sorry for the lack of detail. I hesitate to give you to give you too much of the wrong info as I don't know what's important to you and what's not. The computer that sent you the output is a Compaq Pressario laptop (about 2-years old) that is running Zen Walk  6.04. The computer I am actually trying to boot with Plop is a Dell Inspiron 8000 laptop currently running a version of Puppy Linux. If it would help, I'll gladly try to run the same output out of the Dell.

As for the flashdrive, this is a brand new one that has given me no trouble booting this distro on several other computers (both Linux & Windoze) that have the option to boot from USB in their BIOS. That's about all I can tell you about it. I do have one that I can only use for data storage as it used to boot an OS but no longer will, so I understand what you're getting at. At the risk of being redundant, the problem with this Dell computer has always been that it will not boot with Plop using a distro that is formatted with a FAT partition. If I can put an OS together (graphically) with an ext. 3 partition as I have many times with Puppy, it will boot. I haven't had time to try your previous suggestion to copy files to an ext. 3 partition, but that actually sounds like it might work IF I can manage to execute it. We may be quickly approaching the limits of my meager abilities and I don't want to waste any more of your time, so let me know if and what you want me to try next.

[Elmar]

If it would help, I'll gladly try to run the same output out of the Dell.

yes please post it

the problem with this Dell computer has always been that it will not boot with Plop using a distro that is formatted with a FAT partition.

i dont understand why you think that it has to do with the file system on the drive. did you successful boot on the dell any other system with plop that was on the new usb drive and had not fat as file system? some details please

[Javelin Dan]

I will post the output. It's 12:12 EST and I'm at work; I'll have to wait till I get home from work and post later this evening.

OK, here's chapter and verse on my limited understanding of using Plop with the Dell. About 2-years ago, I had loaded Antix on this computer using the CD drive but had a lot of trouble doing it. When I decided to experiment with some other distros, I tried the CD drive again but by now it had totally died. I looked into Puppy Linux and discovered they had "Wake Pup" which I'm sure you know is also a floppy mounted bootloader However, it must always be formatted with a FAT 16 or 32 partition. In my spare time, I tired unsuccessfully for several weeks to make Wake Pup boot Puppy Linux on this machine. I then discovered Plop and tried to make it work, but it always failed as long as I was formatting to FAT partitions. It wasn't until I was scouring the Puppy Linux forums one day that I stumbled onto a couple of people's posts that suggested that formatting to Linux ext. 2 or 3 partitions had worked for them. I tied ext.2 first with no success, but as soon as I tried using ext.3, Plop booted any version of Puppy Linux I tried! But so far, I am only able to use various versions of Puppy as the only way I know to "assemble" this is via the method and sequence I previously described. I'm certainly not saying this is the only way it will work, I'm just saying this is the only way I know how to make it work.

[Javelin Dan]

Oh, and I forgot to add that this has been with the use of 4 or 5 different flashdrives over the course of this period of time, so I don't think it's specific to a particular USB. I have not tried Plop with any other computer, so I have no other experience to compare it to.

[Elmar]

trust me, the ext file system will not change anything in this case. you said, the boot manager hangs at " Port 1: Device connected". at this stage, no singe byte is read from any sector of the drive -> the file system doesn't matter.

to be more specific, for booting the file system is only important for
1st: the program that loads the operating system kernel from the file system
2nd: for the loaded operating system kernel that is managing the access to the file system.

for everything else it doesn't matter what file system is on the drive.

[Javelin Dan]

OK - I DO trust you. I'll post the output from the other computer tonight and you can tell me what if anything you want me to do next.

[Javelin Dan]

This is all I could get out of either command - sorry.

sh-3.00# lsusb .txt
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 083a:4505
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 0781:5567
sh-3.00# lsusb -v
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 083a:4505
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 0781:5567
sh-3.00#

[Elmar]

no problem.

i see there is a wlan adapter. is it internal or external?
and it looks like there is only usb 1.1 but you said it hangs when the ehci driver is loaded.
EDIT: when you wrote the output of the plop boot manager window, you forgot one line. so, there is only usb 1.1.

hint:
when there are permission problems, then you dont get the full lsusb output.
when you dont know if you are the root user (the user with all rights in linux), then use the command "whoami". when you not get "root" then you have to use "sudo" to run the command as root without permission problems. example: sudo lsusb -v > lsusb.txt


btw. how do you start the plop boot manager?
is there a floppy drive in the dell?

[Javelin Dan]

I'll try to answer your questions as best i can...

1.) The wlan (wireless adapter?) is an SMC USB external adapter. There are two usb ports on this machine that both seem to work just fine, but at the time I ran this output, I only had the Lubuntu USB plugged in.

2.) I did try both "su" and "sudo" and was rewarded with "no such command". This machine is running Puppy Linux and my understanding is that it always allows you to run with "Root" privledges with no sign-in. Yes - No?

3.) Yes, I originally loaded it via the floppy drive, but have since installed it to the hard drive. Don't know if it makes a difference, but Plop would never function correctly with the floppy still in the drive.

[Elmar]

for the moment, i can only say that you can try the alternative plopkexec and run it from a floppy.
see http://www.plop.at/en/plopkexec.html

when you need help to write the floppy image then say it.

[Javelin Dan]

I'll try it when I have some time - won't for a few days. Thanks for your help.