PLoPping on an old computer...

[starhawk]

Hello, all... I'll be your annoying n00b for today... or at least one of them

I have a really old system ("born" early 1992) that I am restoring to more-or-less stock hardware. It was my first computer, and I'm rather attached to it, even though most people would think that its primary application would be in marine maneuver prevention

System specs:
Athena Power AP-AT30 AT/LPX 300W PSU
Pine Technology PT-319a Baby AT Motherboard (no on-board drive controllers!)
TI 486SX 33MHz on-board
NO math coprocessor, and therefore no floating point support
4MB RAM (yes, four megabytes )
Boring ISA video card
Boring ISA sound card with CD-ROM controller on-card
Goldstar IDE Plus V3 ISA drive & I/O controller card
Western Digital WDAC-2250 256MB HDD
CD-ROM drive (I think it's either a 16x or a 24x, but I don't remember)
2x Floppy Drives (one for loading a boot floppy, the other for installing boot managers)

All hardware is correctly installed and functioning properly. The hard drive is correctly configured in BIOS. An OS is installed (Windows For Workgroups WFW311) but it did not install a bootloader because its install program was too bloody stupid to realize that the system was booted off of a floppy disk.

The issue, plain and simple, is that PLoP Boot Manager's installer cannot read/write my HDD. It detects an HDD at 0x80, but it cannot even get a size for it, let alone install anything. Obviously booting from CD is out of the question. I suppose that I should also mention, for those too young to recall, that USB support is not an option on something this old. It does not exist.

Please tell me what I need to do in order to make PLoP work!

EDIT: hit Post and then realized I should probably mention: "bend over and kiss your *** goodbye" is NOT an acceptable answer.

[bomz]

buy new computer

[starhawk]

Not helpful I have plenty of newer computers that don't do what I'm looking for... nostalgia type stuff.

[bomz]

install DOS and nostalgiring

[starhawk]

OK. This is a little frustrating.

What I want is for PLoP to boot my old 486, which I don't know how to do.

What I keep hearing from you is that you want me to go out and get a newer computer, or to run DOSBox on another system. Those are both "workarounds" in that they will get me a working system... but not the one that I want.

I want PLoP on that old 486. That is the only thing I want. If I can't have it, I'll go somewhere else and get it. Do I really need to mention that ya'll do not have the only bootloader in existence...?

[bomz]

99% bios is too old. try to find old boot managers, there is many and now free soft for dos

[bomz]

what you want boot with plop - 4 mb memory? in dos the special command to change command.com copy. any manager's no need

[starhawk]

I'm having a hard time understanding you... but I'm guessing based on what I read that you don't know what OS I want to boot, as well as why there is no MBR/bootmanager already present.

That information was covered in my first post.

[bomz]

yes i forgot about Windows NT 3.0 . I have NT 4.0 on my computer, with NTFS and big disk's patch. only video drive problems - but NT 4 need 16 RAM or something like that.
it was very hard to find soft on it - for 3.0 impossible

I find all music player, video player , codecs, download manager.
for video two drivers - one slow, one work from install for first reboot. but if I don't have ATI all is OK, my card don't have drive for NT previous and next version have.

This OS-es vary capricious with memory if you use boot manager it destroy kernel

[starhawk]

Not NT anything. Windows For Workgroups, AKA Win3.11. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.1x#Windows_for_Workgroups_3.11

[bomz]

I have windows 3.1 too - make RAM version. were is no sense in it. There is many DOS expanders which much better


http://bomz-co.narod.ru/Ram.Win3.11.VC.7z

[starhawk]

You're Russian? My last name is Havel I live in USA, but my father's line is all Eastern Europe... Russia on male side (Havel), Austro-Hungarian Empire on female side (Krehel).

I appreciate the copy of Win 3.1 but I don't need it -- I already have it

[bomz]

This is RAM version for modern computers there is no NTFS driver for it. for DOS exist NTFS driver
There is DOS GUI making from DOS XP - google it

[bomz]

http://www.stefanbion.de/dosprogs/
Try NDOS or 4DOS and DOSSTART
QuickVie avi player

Win 3.1 is also DOS GUI no boot manager need

[starhawk]

Alas, I only speak American fluently... and a few words of French and Spanish. I know three Russian words, but I can't keep straight which is which

Education system stinks in this country.

That site is in German, which I can't understand, and I see no entries for 4DOS, NDOS, or DOSSTART.

You are technically correct that Win 3.x is essentially a GUI for DOS, and therefore needs no boot manager. But how do I then get from BIOS to DOS?

[Elmar]

buy new computer

bomz, don't always tell any such alternatives that does not help. i have to block you when you don't stop with that. and post only topic related.

[starhawk]

No (major) harm done, just a bit of annoyance

[Elmar]

hi,

4MB RAM (yes, four megabytes )

4mb is too less. you need 16mb.

All hardware is correctly installed and functioning properly. The hard drive is correctly configured in BIOS. An OS is installed (Windows For Workgroups WFW311) but it did not install a bootloader because its install program was too bloody stupid to realize that the system was booted off of a floppy disk.

the boot problem should be easy to fix. whats happening when you turn on the pc and what messages do you see?
how big is the hard disk?

regards
elmar

[starhawk]

16mb is minimum for Win95 if running other programs on top Win 311 can run in 2mb ram (barely...)!

When I try to boot, sooner or later I get a "missing operating system" error. I've tried various other bootloaders, with the following results:

- BootMGR from BTTR beeps at me and otherwise does nothing.
- BootMGR from another site (don't recall URL, sorry) gives "invalid boot record" error.
- PLoP Bootloader fails to install no matter what I do. Can't seem to read or write the drive.
- GRUB4DOS fails to install as well, claiming that I need an "EBIOS", whatever that is.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to mention. Drive is Western Digital WDAC2250, size 255.9 MB unformatted, ~243 MB formatted and with Win311 installed.

[Elmar]

When I try to boot, sooner or later I get a "missing operating system" error. I've tried various other bootloaders, with the following results:

in this case, no boot loader will help you. win 3.11 and similar are stared from dos. so you have to install at least a small dos. boot a dos floppy and run "sys c:" then create an autoexec.bat with "echo WINDOWSPATH\win > c:\autoexec.bat". replace WINDOWSPATH with your windows directory where the file win.com is. i can't remember if win 3.11 needs himem.sys. if yes, then you have to add it too and create a config.sys.

[Elmar]

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to mention. Drive is Western Digital WDAC2250, size 255.9 MB unformatted, ~243 MB formatted and with Win311 installed.

ok, i have to fix the installer for hd's smaller than 1gig.

maybe my boot manager would start in text mode. you can test it with starting the boot manager from a floppy, but you have to configure plpbt.bin for text mode before you start it. i never tested it with 4mb ram.

[starhawk]

Did the following:

> sys c:
> copy config.sys c:
> copy autoexec.bat c:
> fdisk /mbr

"missing operating system" is what I get for my troubles

[starhawk]

You wouldn't be able to create a small, custom version for me that *only* had text mode (and would work on tiny hard drives), would you? If not, I understand (well, sorta) -- I imagine it would be a fair amount of work...

[Elmar]

Did the following:

> sys c:
> copy config.sys c:
> copy autoexec.bat c:
> fdisk /mbr

"missing operating system" is what I get for my troubles

is the boot flag set for the boot partition? run fdisk and set the partition "active" or so

You wouldn't be able to create a small, custom version for me that *only* had text mode (and would work on tiny hard drives), would you? If not, I understand (well, sorta) -- I imagine it would be a fair amount of work...

a custom version would not help in your case.

[bomz]

That site is in German, which I can't understand, and I see no entries for 4DOS, NDOS, or DOSSTART.

I don't give you URL because don't know good english sites. GOOGLE. I find many Russins with big collections drivers for DOS programs..... my DOS repare system - try hot key's F1-F2... for modern computers. need 32 RAM http://zalil.ru/31684660

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4DOS
http://www.4dos.info/

[Elmar]

...and would work on tiny hard drives...

now i tested installing to a 2mb hard disk in qemu. it worked without problem (except the hd size info)

[bomz]

http://zalil.ru/31684674 dosstart
http://zalil.ru/31684675 quickview

for dos sound driver big problem. universal video driver exists

[Elmar]

for dos sound driver big problem. universal video driver exists

nobody asked for sound or graphics!

[starhawk]

I'm guessing he is referring to one (or both) of the downloads posted.

bomz, I appreciate the effort to find those, but they will not help for what I need.

Elmar, I have checked, and the boot flag is set for the drive's only partition.

[Elmar]

Elmar, I have checked, and the boot flag is set for the drive's only partition.

the partition is a primary partition, or?

[starhawk]

Yes.

I do not know of any procedure that can create a logical or extended partition without any primary partitions... there is only one partition on that drive

[Elmar]

hmm, over the distance its difficult to say whats the exact problem on your computer. i would say the easiest is to restart.

• if needed, copy your data away from the hard disk
• remove the partition with fdisk
• reboot
• boot dos floppy and create a new partition with fdisk
• reboot
• boot dos floppy and run "format c: /s"
• reboot
• when dos is booting from the hard disk you won, install (or copy back) win 3.11

the reboots are important!

[starhawk]

I will do that as a measure of last resort. My floppy disks are all reused ones (I got Win311 install files on a CD from a friend) and I've no idea how much use I can get out of them before I have to find some way to purchase new ones -- which would be a very difficult proposition for me due to my current lack of suitable funds.

Is it possible for you to make me a version of PLoP loader which has only text mode? If not, OK, just want to know -- it may help.

[bomz]

You switch PLoP to text mode?

[Elmar]

configured to start in text mode: http://download.plop.at/tmp/plpbt.img

(my text mode looks fantastic like a graphic mode but its really text mode 80x50)

[starhawk]

Thank you very much. I will try it later today... it is 4am here in North Carolina I need sleep.

[jan4]

Hello starhawk and Elmar,

The reason plop  (and grub) is not installing on your old harddisk is that LBA mode wass not invented then I think!
The only mode to write to that disk could be Head , cylinder and sector.

It has nothing to do with the size, have plop working on a 32MB flash card in IDE adapter (verry old too).

Never the less the normal dos boot from harddisk should work.
Verrify the master slave switches on harddisk and cd  WD drives are verry pikky on wrong settings.

Hope this helps!

[Elmar]

The reason plop  (and grub) is not installing on your old harddisk is that LBA mode wass not invented then I think!
The only mode to write to that disk could be Head , cylinder and sector.

you are wrong. i cannot speak for grub, but my installer for the plop boot manager does not use the lba function to write to the hard disk. i use the good old function 3 with chs.

best regards
elmar

[vesalocal]

When I try to boot, sooner or later I get a "missing operating system" error. I've tried various other bootloaders, with the following results:

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to mention. Drive is Western Digital WDAC2250, size 255.9 MB unformatted, ~243 MB formatted and with Win311 installed.

I don't see a reason why you need a different bootloader at all...
Your HDD is not larger than 512mb, your BIOS should be able to handle the C/H/S settings of your HDD.

How about your battery?  Those old boards all have a dead battery, so your BIOS settings are
forgotten after each shutdown/reboot and so the hard disk can't be found.

You could try a FreeDOS installation.  There is also a GUI.

Good luck!

By the way: over here runs a VLB board with an i486 at 33 MHz, Linux of course.

[starhawk]

The reason I need a bootloader relates to my method of installing. I had to install using a Boot Floppy, and with that method, the Windows Installer thinks that I'm running DOS from the Hard Drive and will not place a bootloader.

You are partially correct regarding the battery. It does not hold much of a charge, but that would not affect the issue that I'm having except to reset the boot order to boot hard drive first, floppy second (I have it set floppy first, hard drive second, for a reason).

[Elmar]

to run win 3.11 you must be able to run dos from the hard disk (when you dont want to use a floppy). no dos -> no win3.11

[starhawk]

I am keenly aware of this fact.

EDIT: Elmar, do you have an installer that will call that *.bin file for me? I don't seem to see one in the image file you posted.

[bomz]

I don't know how it in USA - buy floppy. But I ask floppy in our market - they may bring me floppy if I buy full box (10-20 disks in it) about 6$ for 1 disk . if remember that it's only 1.4 mb, speed of reading floppy 40-60 kb, read/write errors and it life-time about few year's it's very shady transaction.

If you have COM port you may buy COM-to-USB adapter.

[Elmar]

EDIT: Elmar, do you have an installer that will call that *.bin file for me? I don't seem to see one in the image file you posted.

i dont understand what you mean. this floppy is bootable and starts the boot manager.

[starhawk]

I'm sorry. I did not realize that it was bootable. I will try it again.

[starhawk]

Well... the disk IS bootable... but my efforts to use it get me a row of dots and a blinking cursor at the start of the next line.

Bother.

EDIT: just thought of something that might be affecting this. Without a math coprocessor, this computer cannot support decimals -- only integers. Could that be causing trouble?

[jan4]

Hi starhawk,
Installing plop bootmanager on an 486 system in HARDDISK is not a good id.

Elmar made me curious so i have done some experimenting with a 330MB hard disk (790x15x47) .
Although i managed to install and run the boot manager on an pentium 2 pc (it wass terrably slow and data wass not inported) I could NOT get it to run on my intel 486DX2 pc.
In my original hd settings the incomplete track o 0,0,2 to 0,0,57 (28kb) is not enough for plop data so DANGER of Crippeling data of the first partition.
There are 2 ways to overcome that:
1. leave some free space before first partition,
2. Change 790x15x57  to something els that forms 330MB and repartition and reformat.

Best is making your harddisk bootable
One thing you can try is write a new Inital Boot Loader (i don't know is Fdisk /mbr is doing it ) but writing a new can't hurt.

To do so download "Ranish Partition Manager" (is in Hirens boot cd) then go to the "Master Boot Record" and press enter , than change "Unknown IPL" to "Standard IPL" with the space bar.
Enter to go back and escape and "Save MBR" to go back to dos .
Start "part" again to see if all is ok , then reboot and hope you now get the dos prompt.

Success   

[starhawk]

Darn

I will try Ranish Partition Manager in a few minutes.

[bomz]

EDIT: just thought of something that might be affecting this. Without a math coprocessor, this computer cannot support decimals -- only integers. Could that be causing trouble?

Windows emulate co-processor's if no it. DOS - belong from prog author

[Elmar]

Elmar made me curious so i have done some experimenting with a 330MB hard disk (790x15x47) .
Although i managed to install and run the boot manager on an pentium 2 pc (it wass terrably slow and data wass not inported) I could NOT get it to run on my intel 486DX2 pc.

what version did you use? 5.0.13 works on a 386!!!

[Elmar]

Well... the disk IS bootable... but my efforts to use it get me a row of dots and a blinking cursor at the start of the next line.

4mb ram are too less

[bomz]

Code Select Expand

works on a 386!!! = use command of 386 proc

[jan4]

@ Elmar ,
The last version 5.0.13 on the harddisk .

I put in my floppy with version 5.0.13 test2-pcmcia and that runns fine on the same 486DX2 pc.
I have 32 MB of ram in that pc.

[starhawk]

Sounds like it's a RAM issue, then. Ranish Partition Mgr is next attempt.

[bomz]

may be elmar have the very very first version of plop

[bomz]

[bomz]

QEMU. 486, standart ISA Based PC - in text mode plop works

[starhawk]

Qemu is using 32 bit mode with ACPI. My system is 16 bit with no ACPI. (BIOS is c. 1992 -- no ACPI back then!)

Ranish reports that the entire first partition is "out of range" and the whole line for that partition is in bright red text. That's bad, right?

[Elmar]

QEMU. 486, standart ISA Based PC - in text mode plop works

trust me. my boot manager works on a real 386 with 16mb ram

[bomz]

it's very good - this make it very ... trusty (reliable)

[Elmar]

Ranish reports that the entire first partition is "out of range" and the whole line for that partition is in bright red text. That's bad, right?

your partition values are bad, thats the reason for the "missing operating system".

do a restart like i told you before. thats the only clean and best solution. the earlier you do it, the earlier you get it to work.

[starhawk]

<krusty-the-clown> AAWWWW CRAP!! </krusty-the-clown>

Alright, I guess I'll go do that.

[Elmar]

QEMU. 486, standart ISA Based PC - in text mode plop works

trust me. my boot manager works on a real 386 with 16mb ram

in theory it would work with less than 16mb, but changing the code would not change anything about this topic

[Elmar]

<krusty-the-clown> AAWWWW CRAP!! </krusty-the-clown>

25 cent for handsome pete he is great


EDIT: Arr! A quarter! He'll be dancing for hours!

[starhawk]

Ah, the joys of internationally televised stupidity

For the entertainment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-kVjGWq4L4

[jan4]

A red line in ranish is not good but can work sometimes.
Are you able to change IPL ? Try it first.
Otherwise you will have no option but start over making a partition , format and install new!.

5MB ram works  for plop V5.0.13 test2-pcmcia (not verry good green screens and slow) on my 486DX2 4MB dous NOT!

[Elmar]

Ah, the joys of internationally televised stupidity

For the entertainment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-kVjGWq4L4

great 


pete:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63zpvNUn60g

unfortunately modified but the end is there, arrr:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc5swu54aPs&NR=1

[starhawk]

Yarr!

I have successfully repartitioned my system. It boots DOS 6.22 and is installing Windows!!

[starhawk]

Forgot to mention... here is what I did. This is a copy from a thread on another forum, here--> http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1635721

Boot from DOS 6.22 floppy
Open Ranish Partition Mgr from 2nd floppy (PART.EXE)
Delete old (bad) partition, make new one as FAT16 DOS >32MB
Install Boot Mgr from within Ranish Partition Mgr, as Text Mode, booting to Part#1
Save & Exit

REBOOT

Boot from DOS 6.22 floppy
A:\> sys c:
Eject boot floppy after command completes.

REBOOT

Should boot from hard drive. If not, something's wrong.
Insert 1st Win311 setup floppy in drive A:\
C:\> a:\setup

...and away we go!

[Elmar]

my way does not need ranish or a second floppy

[starhawk]

fdisk and format both fail to work correctly on that drive. Hence, Ranish.

[bomz]

why you don't use MS DOS 7.0 or MS DOS 8.0.
7.0 - see fat32, translated all language. you may find it in Windows 98, have patch for big disks*
8.0 - no need hymem.sys and memory manager's. have only unofficial version*
PC DOS 7.0 translated all language, separately product in ALL equipment
PC DOS 2000 full equipment
Free DOS - live

*no need installation - copy IO.SYS and COMMAND.COM - that all. It's mbr find file, not disk sector.

[Elmar]

fdisk and format both fail to work correctly on that drive. Hence, Ranish.

finally its only important that you can boot

[bomz]

check your HD for bad sector - you find dos utilities. modern HD life - 5 year non-stop spinning